Ace Retention by Building CRM into Your Product

John Koetsier:  We all know about the mobile growth tech stack. What tech stack do you need for world-class mobile user retention? Hello, and welcome to Retention Masterclass. My name is John Koetsier.

Peggy Anne Salz: And my name is Peggy Anne Salz, we’re your co-hosts on the show. And may I add, John, we’re also live, so this is exciting … moving on with our series.

John Koetsier: This is exciting. We’re live on Peggy’s Twitter, we’re live on my Twitter, we’re live on Twitch, we’re live on YouTube, we’re live on Periscope, we’re live on Facebook in a couple different places … so it’s exciting. This is Retention Masterclass and we are talking about world-class retention and what actually you need to make that happen. So, Peggy, jump right into it.

Peggy Anne Salz: I will indeed. And first of all, you know, we’re talking about the growth stack, but it’s not just growth — not just the tech stack, rather — it’s about experience, it’s about brand, it’s about product. Because you can’t go from good to great if you of course have a bad app experience.

So, it’s about experience. What motivates us, activates us, moves us. So it’s about a better tech stack for retention, but it’s also about mobile CRM because that can make a huge difference. So, it’s a bit of a different spin, but a huge, huge importance here.

John Koetsier: And the interesting thing is, I mean, it’s kind of weird to say “CRM” for mobile, right? We’re used to seeing CRM for maybe high value clients, a hundred thousand dollar a year clients or something like that in Salesforce.

But that’s kind of exactly the concept here. You’ve got super valuable users in your mobile app and there’s kind of a CRM way to dealing with them, to marketing to them, to meeting their needs.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely. And I would say, hey, if that isn’t the key to growth in the tech stack, I don’t know what is, right? So I’m very excited because we’re talking with Christian Eckhardt, CEO and co-founder of Customlytics.

Now we’ve spoken before in a COVID-related project we did for CleverTap, and since then I was checking — because I’m always researching before a show — Business of Apps top app marketing company in 2020. So high five to you, Christian! I mean, you’ve been around a while but just keep racking them up and bringing them in. So it’s great to have you here on Retention Masterclass, Christian, because you’re going to be the man. You’re going to be able to tell us about this. This is what you do.

Christian Eckhardt: Yeah.

John Koetsier: Excellent. Well welcome, Christian, to the show. Really appreciate your time.

Christian Eckhardt: Thanks for having me guys, happy to be here.

John Koetsier: Excellent.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

John Koetsier: So we want to get into retention and tech stack, but Customlytics may be new to some people, and it’s kind of core to how you’re authoritative on the topic and about retention and tech stack. Tell us a little bit about what you do at Customlytics, and maybe why you have some special experience around what we’re calling sort of mobile CRM.

Christian Eckhardt: Absolutely. So, Customlytics is the company that I started together with my co-founder around … oh yeah, Peggy, you’re right, four years ago. So it has been quite some…

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

Christian Eckhardt: …quite a bit of time already. And what we do, in a nutshell, is all things that are remotely connected to mobile apps and marketing them. That’s how I would put it. And we are nerds, so we are a lot of, you know, we are very much into the technology side of things. We do set up the analytics stack for apps, we have attribution tracking tools, we have a CRM which we’re talking about today, and all the topics that kind of belong to successfully promoting an app. That’s how I would put it.

My co-founder and I, well I think it’s fair to conclude that we never really have done anything else than mobile marketing in our lives.

We have started working in mobile marketing at Delivery Hero here in Berlin around the year of 2013, which makes me feel even older, and so that was the early days of mobile apps, stuff like, I don’t know, app of the day still existed. And I dunno, it was still a good idea to do instant traffic. Anyways, we started off in performance marketing actually.

So we’re sitting there and we were briefed with the task of generating new users for the German business of Delivery Hero — Delivery Hero is a not-so-small company anymore that does online food delivery, for those that haven’t heard of it.

So we’re sitting there, my co-founder and I, and we were doing the paid campaigns and quickly we realized that everything that we did was just like super inefficient, essentially because we didn’t have any data to optimize our campaigns on. So naturally the first thing that we looked into was the attribution and marketing tracking for the apps.

Once we had that solved, which only took us a year, I guess, we were at the point where we’re like, okay, we have all those users in the app, the apps are growing … that’s nice but what can we actually do to retain them? So the next topic we looked into was naturally mobile CRM as you’ve already mentioned. So again, from a technology perspective, we looked into the tools that are in the market. And [unclear] one of them, we ran the integration for many, many apps, because he was [a] pretty international company, and that I guess took us another year.

 

Peggy Anne Salz, CEO of MobileGroove

And on the side, we always were dealing with those other mobile marketing topics like apps optimization. And then yeah, one step came to the other, and then I guess in 2015 or 2016 we were thinking, oh, that’s cool, we know quite a bit now. We were getting invited to more and more lunches where former colleagues were asking us, ‘Hey, can you tell me how mobile works?’ and that’s for like mobile retention.

And we were paid in food, and then at some point we just realized, hey, this is not good for our health and maybe we should find another way of monetization, and then started a company.

It’s not a startup per se. There’s no investors, everything that we have managed to grow until this point is from client business. So we’re still small, 20 people based solely in Berlin, which is, I think, the right place to be for this kind of business. But we are very, like, we’ve stayed very true to the core of what we love, which is mobile apps, mobile marketing. So that’s exactly what we do today for many, many, many clients with some friendly people that are working for us … or we’re working for them, probably. So, yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: And no longer paid in food.

John Koetsier: Maybe just a little bit of food.

Christian Eckhardt: No longer paid in food.

Peggy Anne Salz: But, you know, I want to stay with Delivery Hero ’cause that is a really cool company. I’ve written about it for Forbes, elsewhere. I watch it, and the reason I watch it so closely is because they make a real effort to match the push and the messaging with, literally, with the meal, with the time of day … they look at neighborhoods, I mean, they really do get into this. So I have looked at that. But then they’re one of your clients, you know. You know about this, and they employ push in a way that you have described as “situational,” which I like. I like a new term. I like a new paradigm.

So, tell me about situational. What is different from say, for example, contextual, which is what we used to use.

Christian Eckhardt: So, situational is, I think — and I guess that’s probably a term that I indeed have used before, I’m now ready to say it — so the idea behind this whole idea of situational communication is that, I mean, we’re building all of those like retention mechanics, or like the messaging that we built is always meant to not feel like marketing to the user, or not feel like something that the user thinks that, oh, like there’s a marketing manager sitting in front of his computer sending me this push notification now.

Now having said that, the idea behind those situational messages is that the user feels that it’s actually exactly what he or she would have expected to receive from this brand in this specific situation … hence the word.

And there we get to the other interesting part where I always like have nice discussions with other people about, is that, you know, is CRM, or mobile CRM in our context, even still part of marketing? Or to which degree is it actually more part of product? I would argue it’s probably, if done right, it’s probably more part of product actually than it is of marketing. I think if it gets…

 

John Koetsier, Journalist, analyst, futurist

Peggy Anne Salz: Interesting.

John Koetsier: That makes a ton of sense. Absolutely.

Christian Eckhardt: … or broken push notifications.

John Koetsier: Yeah. That makes a ton of sense, Christian. Sorry to interrupt there. I think you were frozen for half a second, please continue.

Christian Eckhardt: Yeah, so I think that the [unclear] situation for push is really that for the user it just feels like a good user experience, the right message at the right time. Just like information that he or she would [have] expected. I think this is the right thing to say. That can be anything … so in the case of Delivery Hero, a lot of stuff of course evolves around the weather.

One last example that I always pull is the sand storm which is frequently happening in Middle East, so it’s kind of the Middle East version of rain. And in that situation, well, nobody wants to go out, nobody can go out really, and then good situational messaging is about how the weather outside is terrible, why don’t you order food?

So this is like one of the things, and there’s many more.

Peggy Anne Salz: So let’s be a little bit clear here because, again, I love a new paradigm. Situational sounds cool, but we do have personalization, remember. So I want to be just very clear about the difference between what is situational messaging, because it seems to be something aspirational that marketers and product managers in a project should look to try and be more situational in their messaging.

So what’s the difference to personalization?

Christian Eckhardt: The difference of personalization is that personalization is, I think in that sense, on the scale of how smart a campaign is, I think it’s lower than situational. Personalization is like something — I think personalization is probably the buzzword of, I dunno, couple of years ago in CRM, I would think. Where it’s like, oh, but hey, Peggy, you’ve ordered from these three restaurants, why don’t…

Peggy Anne Salz: Okay.

Christian Eckhardt: … you order from that restaurant again? That’s like…

Peggy Anne Salz: Got it.

Christian Eckhardt: … that’s personalized. Is it so situational? Mmm, probably not.

Peggy Anne Salz: I was going to say, it feels like, you know, would you like fries with your fries? I mean, it’s just the same thing over and over again, right? I get it.

John Koetsier: I like fries with my fries when I have fries. But what sounds interesting to me in that, is that personalization, I mean, obviously there’s privacy and personal data involved which on first-party platform is not necessarily a huge, huge issue — but situational is likely to be responsive to what I’m doing and what environment I’m in, and that can be more powerful, I think.

I had to laugh a little bit there, Christian, when you were saying that doing something in 2013 made you feel old. Peggy and I won’t comment on that. That was quite cute, but it’s okay.

Let’s dive a little deeper into this mobile CRM. I remember, in fact, 2013 brings back memories. I was writing a first report on the category for VentureBeat way back when —VentureBeat “VB insights” we called it — and it was the first report on this market category and I called it “mobile marketing automation.” I didn’t know any better at the time.

And you advise clients to amp up these CRM-type activities. What does that tech stack look like? What’s part of that?

Christian Eckhardt: So, it can look different for … well, different companies. Big surprise, what a great statement. So it looks different for almost any company that we’re working with, but I can name some of the constant components that we always see, especially in successful setups. I think that’s probably more what you’re looking for.

So, I think very fundamental to any mobile CRM system that I’m building for my business, is that I have to have a tool that manages the segmentation, triggering, delivery of the messages.

This is typically the combination that you see in mobile CRM tools today, like CleverTap and a ton of others. This is typically the areas that they focus on, and I can be perfectly fine with just having that one tool if it fits my broader like strategy of technology I want to use in my app. A lot of cases with a lot of clients, this is the only tool that you need and then it’s more about setting it up properly.

In some cases it can make sense to have another tool in the mobile CRM tech stack, if you want to call it like this, that is caring about data collection and management.

So what we typically see in bigger companies that have a lot of other tools floating around is that at some point they come to the realization — well, we tell them — that it would be a smart idea to not have five different SDKs in the app all collecting different kinds of data, to kind of centralize the collection of data in one tool SDK, and then manage it from there and kind of spread it from there.

So this is CDPs, customer data platforms, like a particular segment, again often used when you have a lot of other tools.

And again you come to this realization that you don’t want to track any event five times. And then this can sit kind of below that mobile CRM tool and feed it with data … that’s a common scenario. But outside of that, I think it’s not really that there’s this one additional tool that you really need to make it successful. I think what we always see is that it kind of extends and falls all with the integration of your mobile CRM tool. This integral kind of foundation that does the segmentation, triggering, and delivery of the messages, and if that’s set up properly, then you can do the smartest things.

John Koetsier: And it’s really interesting that you mentioned that that’s really a function of product and marketing. And of course, the best marketers get really involved in product and the best product people get really involved in marketing, because these teams are sitting really close together these days.

Christian Eckhardt: Yeah, exactly.

I think this is what you see in some companies — I’m thinking like Netflix and the likes — it’s not even like different teams. It’s like one team that’s creating the product and part of the product is the messaging that comes with it.

But sometimes I think, sometimes they even feel it’s a bit weird to even view it as a separate kind of thing from product. I know it’s done like this in a lot of companies, but yeah, sometimes it feels very weird, especially when they are kind of very disconnected. Because like how does it make sense to have disconnected CRM and product teams if the CRM team can go there and, I don’t know, create a neon color blocking in-app message that screws up the entire product. Like, what’s the point of having that separated from the product team, like…

John Koetsier: Yeah. Yeah, I totally get that. And I know Peggy’s going to go a little farther on this … the one place where it makes some sense to me is that product people, especially for a product that’s in use, whether it’s a SaaS product or a consumer product that you use on a subscription basis or something like that, deal with people that are in the app.

And now of course, there’s the funny part, right? When you have that, your marketing is often to the freemium layer to convert them to a paid layer, right? But you also have people new to the platform, new to the brand, new to the product entirely. And there you need, I don’t know if it’s different people, but it’s different activities and different outreach and stuff like that. But Peggy, I’m stealing your time. Please go ahead.

Peggy Anne Salz: No, no, I was just thinking the whole time when he was talking about that. First of all, I was fascinated that we talked about two pieces. I was expecting, you know, another one of the growth stacks but with the CRM one just a little …

John Koetsier: Yeah, 25.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, exactly, 35 across here. So I do want to pick up on that for just a moment, John, because that’s a piece for people who are listening in and saying, wow, okay, I need something that does something, like a CleverTap — but there are others — and then I need another piece to sort of bring together all my SDKs. So I need a dataset. Is there anything there that I’m … it almost sounds too simple, Christian.

And I know that you do a lot of work in sort of like thumbs up, thumbs down on different pieces, different tools people need, don’t need. He can be very brutal, John, very brutal, indeed. So what can we dump? I mean, it doesn’t seem like we can dump anything there, or is it because marketers are bringing in some other stuff on the periphery that they think they need, but don’t … because it sounds almost too simple.

Christian Eckhardt: Yeah. Well I’ve … so first of all, I think on the point of all of that sounding so simple, that’s probably just because that’s like many years of training of me making things sound simple that are complex. So apparently I’ve accomplished that.

If you would ask me today what’s the bigger problem, people having too many tools for funny different things and striving to connect them, or too little or like missing the right tool … I would probably say that the more common scenario is the one with the too many tools actually.

And I think just because I made this bold statement of oh, like it’s one or two kind of tools that you really need. Like the complexity in that doesn’t come from the quantity of the tools. You can spend a lifetime setting up the mobile CRM tool, like…

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah.

Christian Eckhardt: … especially because today, there’s a development you see in CleverTap, but also in tools like, well, Braze, Moengage, Leanplum, they all develop through into this AB testing direction because they have realized that what they were already doing with the CRM part is so related to the product that they could also just go there and create this AB testing functionality for the product people.

And like, that’s an interesting development.

So what I’m saying is that you can spend a lifetime just with even one CRM tool.

I think the complexity is more in configuring that correctly, which is something that takes, I guess, years of practice and also many attempts of not getting it right … until you reach a point where like, oh yeah, look at the business model, this is exactly the 36 events that I will need to track to allow for my personalization. Like…

John Koetsier: And that brings up a question that Peggy’s been interested in, which is around harm, right Peggy?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah. I mean, and now that he talks about that way, you really understand why you can’t let amateurs at this, right? So it gets to that question — you’ve written this, Christian, I’ve read it in your blogs, you know, who should be in charge?

Because now you describe it, it’s not just like Spiderman, you know, great power comes great responsibility. This is serious stuff. Do you want to give it to the marketing manager who says, ‘Gee, I’ve got this KPI in mind and I’m going to go after it’? You want to give it to the guy who wants to get 36 different data points and triangulate them or something? You know, who can do it?

You said it can cause harm, so I guess, one, what do you mean by that? And two, who should be in charge?

Christian Eckhardt: Hmm, I think one is easier to explain than two, so I’ll start with that.

John Koetsier: It’s also before two, so that’s a good reason too.

Christian Eckhardt: Thanks, John. So, I think, when I said that it can cause harm, I think it’s pretty easy to explain. So, the messaging part of like mobile CRM is per definition client facing. So I think what I always say in meetings with, I dunno, partners of ours or clients, is that when you mess up the tracking, that’s terrible and your data is broken. Okay, well, but the customer will probably not notice.

If you screw up your messaging — and that still happens — like I tend to just post them on LinkedIn, I still receive push notifications from apps that are completely broken…. and that’s like production apps. So that’s like that’s live apps on my phone.

So yeah, this is what I meant when I said it can cause harm.

John Koetsier: Yeah. That makes sense. Was there a second part there as well? The harder part?

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah. Who’s in charge?

Christian Eckhardt: Who should be in charge? I think it has to be an integrated team of product and marketing people. Like the question is always a bit what kind of staff or worker, what kind of manpower do we have available? It can be, I’ve seen it happen that it can be a product manager that’s just really good at marketing, or like the opposite.

But typically, especially in bigger companies, it’s like an integrated team of product and marketing people that sit together and kind of decide how the CRM should be done, because it has such a big impact on the product and it’s still kind of a marketing topic.

So I think this is the way it should be done. As said, I’ve seen it in smaller companies that it can just be this, you know, one very bright product person that has the background in marketing, so knows how to do stuff.

John Koetsier: Yeah, that makes sense. Excellent. Next question is we’ve gone through a really, really interesting time in mobile, with COVID, with lockdowns, everything like that. We’ve seen a massive increase in numbers of apps, engagement, monetization, across the board in a lot of categories, right? We’ve seen that in gaming. We’ve seen that in delivery and food ordering apps, retail apps, and stuff like that. It’s been pretty impressive. Saw a report come out on that just yesterday as well.

But, you know, at some point, presumably things go a little bit back to normal, right? We don’t know when that is … maybe that’s in a half a year, maybe that’s next month, maybe that’s three years from now. We don’t know, but what are you doing to do? You’ve got this influx of new users. How do you engage them and retain them?

Christian Eckhardt: [Sigh]

John Koetsier: I can only give you the simple questions, right? So you know this is…

Christian Eckhardt: Yeah I’m only here for the simple questions. It’s tough. I think the answer here lays very much in the product. I think the answer is that you should, like in this scenario that you outlined and, you know, with nobody really knowing what’s going on with the COVID situation — I mean, Germany feels normal, but most of the rest of the world is pretty much not so normal, so let’s see how that goes. I think the answer to the question lays pretty much in the product.

And the first thing to check on is if the product is kind of capable of handling those additional users and kind of is the experience for those additional users still what you want it to be? Or can you even work on making the experience for those users that are now coming in special, in the sense that you give them the feeling that you’re in this … I keep repeating myself, but it’s like this scenario of you’re in this together when kind of through messaging the brand let’s you know that in the company, in the brand, there’s also people  working and they’re in this as well.

And I think this is probably the best thing you can do right now to kind of, you know, check on that your product is actually capable of handling the additional influx of users that you’ve mentioned. And then second of all, keep the messaging or keep the — and I guess that’s the context you’re asking for —  keep the CRM, the messaging, so personal that they still, that the user can kind of relate to it.

John Koetsier: Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you.

Peggy Anne Salz: That also goes full circle because now we’re back a little bit more to situational, you know, sort of like empathy situational, right? It’s not just, ‘Hi, John, you’ve been looking at these’ and I know that you’ve been showing a couple things in social media where you’re getting ads for some amazing stuff, so people are getting it completely wrong.

Christian Eckhardt: The first name is the most horrible kind of attribute to use in any kind of like … it’s funny, like it’s always used as an example of a kind of valuable user information, but then which messaging should start with, ‘Hey, John’? Like, yeah, I think this is just cranking up the creepiness level to a point where it’s like, well maybe, maybe I shouldn’t be telling the user that you know all this stuff about him by just blatantly putting his first name and like yeah, it’s a bit beyond me.

Peggy Anne Salz: About 2001, ‘Dave, I don’t think you should be doing that’ right? The 2001 Space Odyssey. Anyway, talking of creepy things. This is a great segue, and I couldn’t wish for a better one to talk about … IDFA, right? And we’re talking all the time now about the impact of it, but now let’s think about retargeting … retention … you know, there’s going to be opportunities, but what are the workarounds?

Christian Eckhardt: Yeah. I guess another simple question for me.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely. They just keep them coming here.

Christian Eckhardt: So I think the good news is that for re-engaging users or solving the problems of users not naturally continuing to use your product in super high frequency forever, there’s … like I always tend to say, there’s two solutions to that problem. One solution is paid retargeting, and the other one is what we were discussing today, CRM … retention.

So all the channels that I kind of own with the product push notification, email, SMS, this kind of thing. And the good news is that in a — and I wouldn’t even call it a post-IDFA world, I think it’s more about a post device-level-data world…

John Koetsier: Yes.

Christian Eckhardt: … in a post device-level-data world, only the paid retargeting is kind of screwed. Well, it’s like it’s still possible and will reflect groups of users and aggregates, but it’s going to be pretty terrible. The old version of that is easier to do because it’s, as John I think already mentioned at the beginning, it’s typically first-party data that you’re working with.

And even if things go very bad you will still be able to segment your users anonymously in your CRM tool and then at least have like the usual kind of, let’s say, levels of personalization possible, because this world doesn’t depend so much on like IDFA and other device-level [identifiers]. So that’s my take.

As much as I have a lot of friends in the paid retargeting world, I think they are the ones that will face the bigger problems, because, well, it’s just like anonymously reliant on the IDFA until this point. The retention side, I think, more stuff will still be possible …

John Koetsier: Yeah, it’s a good segue actually, because you’re talking about retention, you’re talking about retargeting and the ability to message people with first-party data, right? And so we actually talked about messaging earlier as well with Delivery Hero, but what are you seeing that’s in the mix right now? What’s working? What’s more popular? Is it push? Is it in-app? Is it email? What are you seeing that’s being really effective right now?

Christian Eckhardt: I think the right message for the channel has also undergone some evolution over time. There was definitely a point in time when push notifications were, you know, more magical, where they had more like, let’s say more glitter to them, which was the time when not a lot of apps were using it. Now that it’s just like super, yeah, overused for everybody, including some not-so smart companies let’s say, push notification itself is not something … like, ask yourself, are you excited about push notifications these days?

John Koetsier: Mm-hmm.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yeah, well…

Christian Eckhardt: If it’s useful, like that’s the usual answer is, ‘Is it useful?” is also typically the decider if we should do it or not. I think to go back to the question and maybe find the answer for it … I think you have to realize as with every channel in marketing, which is — push is just another channel in marketing — you have to realize, or you have to understand when is the right time to use it and when other channels should be used. So I like to work with this model of like urgency and richness of the message, so to say. Or like, how big is the message I want to transmit, and then work with that.

So push notification, for example, I would typically reserve for urgent stuff. So, you know, high urgency, high usefulness as well, and have that reserved for push notifications.

Then maybe something that’s not as urgent and has more information that I have to transmit, oh, mail is probably a better channel for it. So I think, yeah, I think realizing the differences between the channels and what they are good and bad for is probably the best way to start. And then again, I like to work with this model of like, how urgent is it and how much content.

John Koetsier: And the platforms are getting involved in that as well, right? I mean, like if you keep sending push notifications that don’t get noticed, iOS is going to say, Android is going to say, ‘Hey, you’re not responding to these.’ It’ll either ask you, ‘Do you still want to see these notifications?’ and you can say, ‘No’ right in that sort of modal popup right there, or it’ll just stop sending them to you, right?

And so just like anything else, if you fail to engage, if you fail to provide value, you will soon fail to be able to engage and fail to be able to provide value. So you’ve got to watch out for that.

Christian Eckhardt: I think what you say is like what we see there with the big two operating systems and within iOS, and how they are changing the game on push notifications themselves. I think what we can kind of observe there is the usual scenario of they invented the thing — as in push notifications — with the best intentions and basically with not so many limits to it.

And then at some point they’ve realized, oh sh*t, people are abusing it.

And then, Apple and Google are slowly starting to be like, oh, but let’s only do relevant pushes, let’s be very concise about content management and so on and so on. I think the usual story.

Peggy Anne Salz: But I think this is really valuable because although it’s like, well, you know, it sort of depends, and you have to use the channels depending on the urgency and appropriateness. We still learn a lot here because we know now about situational, right? We know a little bit more about the etiquette. We have an idea of what’s coming if you want to do retargeting. I mean, there’s a lot going on here. I think that it’s just been a really valuable discussion with you, Christian. I can see why you have clients who come to you and say maybe it will take a lifetime to master those two tools. So you will be a busy man. I can’t thank you enough for joining us and sharing this on Retention Masterclass today with us. Thank you for being here.

Christian Eckhardt: You’re welcome, thanks for having me.

John Koetsier: Absolutely Christian, really thank you for being with us. And what we learned also, Peggy, is that there isn’t really a mobile retention stack per se … there’s certainly not 25 tools. Maybe it’s as little as one, maybe it’s three, but it’s not a huge number, which is kind of good to know. But anyways, yes, Christian. Thank you for joining us.

Christian Eckhardt: You’re welcome.

John Koetsier: The other thing, Peggy, I’ll just mention, and it’s kind of big news — we’re putting it right at the very end here and it’s just kind of a teaser as well — but we have some big news coming out for Retention Masterclass as well, right? Perhaps in about a month or something like that.

Peggy Anne Salz: Yes.

John Koetsier: We’re not going to necessarily reveal what that is, but we just might have a sponsor coming for this show.

Peggy Anne Salz: Absolutely.

John Koetsier: It’s almost going to be a real business. We might almost get paid for doing this, rather than just getting food money like Christian.

Peggy Anne Salz: I was going to say, you’re getting food here. My knowing smile … we have some stuff coming up, so, all the more reason to keep tuning in. And I’m getting great guests, I mean, just a waiting list actually now, John. I should know…

John Koetsier: I know. I know.

Peggy Anne Salz:  …because I’m getting emails, so we’re on it.

John Koetsier: This is awesome. So yeah, good things are happening. Thank you for being with us on this show. This was live and this was the first time that we went live on both Peggy and my channels. So we had some glitches here, and Streamyard our platform had some glitches as well, but we got some good insight from Christian. So for everybody who joined us and hung around to the very end as well … thank you so much, really appreciate it. Please like, subscribe, share, comment, all the above. If you loved the podcast, you’re on the audio podcasts later on — hey, rate it, review it, that would be a massive help.

Peggy Anne Salz: Awesome, John. As I said, you know, that’s a wrap. So until next time, as always … keep well, stay safe. This is Peggy Anne Salz signing off with Retention Masterclass.